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03/14/2026

09:39

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PvZ Fix Idea page: 1 2 3 4
epidiOn	Okay, but how do people feel about the main idea I proposed? Honestly, I think that is the most striking feature we could change in a map to make it more balanced, but it's so simple. Any reflections on the "2player maps are more balanced than 4player maps in PvZ" theory?
2006, 09, 07 02:27
NastyMarine	i agree that 1v1 maps are easier for P to regain control.. depending on skill, 4 player maps could/do provide easy wins.. especially b.c Z can take nats which gives them a free expo at the mains. So i guess in the theory it is true. then the next question is, how do we fix this problem (4 player maps) could it be that we must leave it to the players to get better at that point? or assuming it isnt the players fault we must make nats less defendable. Seems like this could prove to be helpful.
2006, 09, 07 02:32
epidiOn	I think we make an incredibly standard 2 player map, get it in PGT and check out the balance in PvZ. And it has to be standard, so there are no other variables affecting the outcome. It's like in science experiments: you want to have only one free variable, which is your control variable. Our control variable is two player maps. If that balance doesn't prove to be any better, then I guess I was wrong. But I think that with the current playstyle (extreme macro), there isn't a whole lot we can do for 4player maps. I donno.
2006, 09, 07 02:38
insoM!a	there is also a discussion about balanced pvz map here http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread.php?id=42678 take a look
2006, 09, 07 12:39
Antares	yeah, we started it :D
2006, 09, 07 12:59
lnept	2 gate is a bad BO because everyone expects it(ESPECIALLY if you play on PGT) most zergs do 10 hatch 10 pool or 12 pool. the ones that 12 hatch take there chances losing to a good proxy gate rush but winning vs those that dont cheese. a build i have found that is very effective is pylon gate assim pylon gate and pump zlots to about 33 supply then get core citadel archives and youll have like 900-1000 gas when you get archives up, thats like 2 archons plus 2 HT with storm and you get an expo with this and your ready for anything
2006, 09, 07 14:38
spinesheath	I guess you play this with weapons + leg enhancements. Actually this build is too common as well. It's so predictable once you don't see any corsairs, and not that much stronger than 2 gate, because zerg can pump more drones in the beginning, go for mass grades and prepare for a mass vs mass game. The first attack with +1 speedzeals is not that hard to hold off if you expect it. With a 2 gate build, you can hold the unit count lower (less eco for zerg), have the option of countering risky/greedy builds early and have better defense against early rushes. So imo these 2 builds are pretty much eaqual, though I as a zerg with a mass-oriented style and a favor for ultraling find it more comfortable to play versus a build as you proposed than against a 2 gate build.
2006, 09, 07 20:27
NastyMarine	TO SPINESHEATH AND INEPT: we are not discussing strategies in this thread!!!!!! we are discussing what we can do as mappers, to fix any imbas/statistics for the community!
2006, 09, 07 23:46
lnept	i already told you my views on that, now im talking about something else so too bad :) that build isnt offensive at all spinesheath. its basically just the ANTI lurker-contain and muta harass, both suck terribly vs it which opens up ZvP to being just own there lurker contain then win before ultra/ling even shows up
2006, 09, 08 02:28
Roadkill	-Here's an idea; make alot of maps without actually thinking them through properly(Only think about resource placement and such) then try them. Don't try to tailor them towards a race, just make some maps and try them, maybe you'll stumble upon a good solution. Discussion alone never fixed anything, go out and try SOMETHING.
2006, 09, 08 02:47
AiurZ	i dont think epidions idea would really work at least from an experimental standpoint, simply because there have already been standard 2 player maps that have gotten heavy play. a much better way to research this problem would be to try to find data on those maps and try to correlate the balance. making "balanced" maps certainly is a novel concept, but for the most part map makers should be trying to invent maps that make the game more fun and interesting to play. on top of that, the statistics on pgt have so many uncontrollable values that i wouldnt really consider them a good indicator for balance.
2006, 09, 08 02:57
Frank-Terrorist	I'm a Z player, and I love playing on 1v1 maps because the scouting issue goes away. I scout sometime when the overlord is being made, then if P is not rushing, I 12 hat, 13 pool, 14 hat (hidden, or sometimes expo), 13 gas, and pump 3-hatch lings. From here, P must really turtle or lose, and vs 1-gate builds, I can usually win by the time sairs are coming out. I win about 50% of games with the 3-hatch ling pump, disguised as a standard 2-hatch. If I can kill the probe in my base and guard the entrance, I'll even take the 3 drones off gas once they get 100 for speed. vs a non-expanding toss, I'll expand and usually switch to hydra. The best way for toss to secure their EXP is to get DTs and sairs. Toss players really need to learn that DT/sair secures expos and stops Zerg from owning the map. Zerg is pretty mobile, but getting a lot of hydra and ovies across the map is HARD when there are corsairs all over the place. Another thing that I find helps toss in PvZ is FE. Even on Azalea where Z is so strong, a 3-base toss FE with cannon/gate/pylon/probe wall is tough to crack... if only toss players could FOLLOW IT UP with proper DT/sair to STOP Z EXPOs. I think the main problem is the following: - P players tend to be the least skilled on PGT... all most of them do is MACRO, MACRO, MACRO. - In PvZ, P must MICRO way more than in any other P MU... storms, drops, storm-drop harass, Maelstrom, sair harass, etc are all a really big part of PvZ, and most P are not good enough at harassing if they only play P. The only suggestion that you guys have mentioned that I really agree with is more islands. Easier for the lazy P to hop down onto and cannon up. How about expansions that have a choke that is a fair distance from the exp... so Z cannot sunk it, but P can cannon/block with pylons. Now, I know that makes ZvT a little challenging, but ZvT can be bolstered in other ways
2006, 09, 08 05:36
spinesheath	@ Inept (hopefully the last post about this since it's off-topic ;) ) Well, since I can go for double evo and get a decent amout of drones vs your build, I am basically preparing for an early lategame ;) Of course the zerg must pay attention not to be too greedy, and probably only take one more expansion before getting his sunk/lurk defense up. But since you pretty much pump half of the game for one attack, zerg will win once he defends against this attack because of the early mass grades. Back to topic: I already said it, and I will say it again: Make maps without striking problems such as Azalea. You cannot plan out a perfect balance. Starcraft is far too complex to do so. The only way to balance it out is to trial and error. And with the zvp style changing the balance will change as well. But you can't just go and only make 2 Player maps, you won't get far with this.
2006, 09, 08 13:55
lnept	but then again its just theorycrafting, so far im 6-1 with that build, im like 5-10 with 2 gate and 5-5 with FE (C+/B- level atm)
2006, 09, 08 14:36
spinesheath	And I am 7-1 with my +1 attacks build in zvz ^^ Rather unusual strategies often allow for an easy win unless you face a pro, and a defensive strat is kinda unusual on PGT ;)
2006, 09, 08 15:50
lnept	yes, all my builds are defensive on PGT, even though i play random. everyone expects some random cheese but i just play straight up then there behind. anyways i recently thought of another way to make ZvP easier what if you made a map with enormous chokes, as to make lurker contains very easy to break? this does not virtually affect any matchup that greatly except PvT but Terran can easily land barracks, engy bay, etc and make small choke.
2006, 09, 09 01:23
boongee	DUAL GAS MAINS
2006, 09, 09 01:35
Cosmi	How would that help toss in PvZ?
2006, 09, 09 03:23
AiurZ	p gas units > zerg
2006, 09, 09 04:05
lnept	i pose a question: whats harder to do: burrow twice as many lurkers or cast twice as many storms?
2006, 09, 09 04:38
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