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Tournnament evaluation.

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Freakling

So...
let's make this a new thread, the old one's growing far too long :P

There's so many things I want to mention, but I am too lazy to organize thoughts right now, so expect a flood of posts from me.

First of, and most importantly: Thank you very much Arc and Fry for making this happen and putting all the effort into this tourney. I hope there will be another one soon :D Keep up the good work!

And, of course, special thanks to Lmaster again (who may or may not read this...) for casting it. I really enjoyed your commentary.

2011, 12, 19 20:14

K_A

I was busy, but I can't wait to hear the details and watch some of the replays.

2011, 12, 19 21:58

Freakling

I was a bit worried: I am not entirely sure whether you published the tourney on Saturday or Sunday (I was away on Sturday) but it was only like 24h or something before it started anyway... Seemed really short term for me. But obviously ICCup as a platform made finding enough players easy, so not a real problem in that regard.

Nontheless I'd suggest to announce the next tourney at least a week in advance and advertise it with a complete map pack so players have a chance to familiarize themselves with the maps. Many of the problems and complaints ("retarded map") seem to originate from the players playing the maps for the first time.

That it's so much easier to blame a loss on the map is of course another point :P

And that virtually all the Protoss players seemed to struggle with their Forge FE wallins in all of the maps in my eyes seems to stem from a lack of knowledge of how exactly the principles behind those wallins are in the first place (rax against terrain on top is never ling tight - on any map, and placing building directly next to each other will always blocj goons...). I wonder what it is the average modern Protoss player does... Probably they all just copy the building placement from pro-replays.

Anyway, my idea to solve such issues, besides advertising/providing the maps in time, is to write some kind of mini-guides with some pictures (for wallins and stuff) for the maps. I'll work on that for the next map pack and see how it works out, how much time it requires etc...

2011, 12, 19 23:20

Freakling

So let's talk about maps.

First of I think we should probably use a more sophisticated map oreder. Either more Bo3 rounds and/or not every one playing on the same starting map in each round. This time we only had two games on Hazard and Gemlong each, for example.

Extending the map pool to 5 or 6 maps and playing a Bo5 final (and probably semi-finals) would be another idea.

Casting all the games would become a problem though :D

2011, 12, 19 23:25

Freakling

So the actual maps:

Melting Pot: People seemed to be irritated by it. Some thought it was an island map at first because the lave bridges are something that's new to players. But that's not a major problem I guess.
A real concern that was brought forth was the strength of Lurker (or likewise tank) contains in front of the nat because the double bridge choke makes pushing out/breaking a contain more difficult than on most maps - and unlike Destination there's no backdoor to sneak out.
The only time that an actual contain happened though was Modesty vs. Frosty (I think) and Zerg absolutely outmacroed Protoss in that game in the first place, so that's not very telling. I'd like to hear some other opinions on this issue, if it is one, and solutions - if required.

Spinel Valley: I'd call this a real success, players liked it and it was player's choice for one of the semis. I am not sure in how far the fact, that an earlier version of this map has been an ICCUp map in the past, so some players may have been familiar with it before the tourney, plays a role in this.
I was a bit surprised how many players opted to take the open "valley" expo as a 3rd in stead of the safer (and richer) corner expo. But this may also be because of unfamiliarity with the map.
The only (general) concern that could apply to it is the "too many poor expos" issue. Most mineral counts on Spinel are 5 or 6. But if that's an issue adding another patch on some of the expos isn't even a problem...

Hazard Black: The unanimous reaction to me seems to have been "WTF, this is so confusing". I guess it's a general issue of Ash maps, they are pretty much grey on grey on the minimap (or in this case big red sign on grey) and it's not easy to grasp their structure with a brief look. People did not know where to scout, where to expand or even where the mains were (although they were blacked out on the minimap). Zerg (was it plus?) taking the middle expo as third instead of any of the safe highground expos or the third nat was definitely a bad decission...
I'll definitely work on the map again, removing the middle expos because they add little to the map but major positional balance concerns as pointed out in the map thread. Let's see where that goes then.

Gemlong: Also got some "retarded" comment, but it did not seem very motivated by anything in particular (other than "I don't know this shit, what am I gonna do?!?"). It got very positive feedback in the TL thread, is the most standard map in the pack(so no major concerns in the first place) and was players choice in the other semi-final. It's also the richest-in-resources map in the pool, so no concern there either. So yeah, only two games played on it means little overall feedback, but I'd say this one can stay as it is anyway.

2011, 12, 19 23:53

ArcTimes

wow, you wrote a lot. We have like 6 people that signed up for the tour, bue most of the players that played the tour (if not all) came because of the announces we made the same day, like half an hour before the tour started.

About the maps.

Melting Pot: Yes, lurker and tank contains are really powerful in that map. I don't think a really fast contain would work if player know the map, because he can abuse webs. For example, if terran tries to make a 2 fac with siege tanks, if he reach the bridges, it would be like hell for the protoss, so protoss can avoid that, waiting for terran in bridges with webs.And in late game, Now, if they are not cross position, that's a problem lol.

Spinel Vally: I didn't know why the hell they took the open exp either lol.
And well, spinel seemed like a easier map to play. Definetly, in melting pot you had to abuse the caracteristics of the map, and they are not use to do that. And they rage in a lot of maps, including iccup maps.

Hazard Black: It was confusing to me the first time too. And yes, it was because it's an ash map. Outsider confused me the first time too lol, and it is a easier map to play.

Gemlong: Actually it didn't receive a retarted comment. Modesty made the retarted comment while playing the map, but it was a general comment.

2011, 12, 20 03:15

XeLious

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2011, 12, 20 13:06

Freakling

So, any plans for a new tournament?

2012, 01, 10 00:24

K_A

I would like to put new map somber spark in the next tournament if that's ok...

2012, 01, 11 20:45

ArcTimes

Well,. i think we should wait for Fry. He is the Tour super admin >.<
I don't see him since xmas u.u

2012, 01, 13 02:26

Freakling

:\ Hope he shows back up soon.

2012, 01, 19 23:28

PhilipJayFry

Yeah i was away between christmas and 8th january.
basically i dont care what maps you pick + you dont have to ask permission or anything like that from me^^ just give me some facts and arc or me can organize iccup news and announcements. i also can make a tl.net thread like last time.
btw we have now an iccup streamer again, iccup.varial. his stream-page: twitch.tv/varialSC
would be great if we have the basics ready (mappack, concept) like 2 - 1.5 weeks before the actual tourney since getting news, making the thread (maybe some banner or sth like that too) and finding some caster takes a few days.
about date/time: any sunday 19cet? (i guess there is no other event)

2012, 01, 20 22:46

Freakling

Great.

2012, 01, 21 11:15

JungleTerrain

ICCup.Varial is my friend in real life. Rofl, he literally lives like 50 feet away from me. We're good friends :D

2012, 01, 22 09:01

PhilipJayFry

hehe^^ nice. so guys, how is it going? any suggestions on maps, format, time/date ? if not, would be great if somebody just decides about the maps and makes a mappack. i can do the rest. if you wanna contact me, best way is through skype: philipjayfry88

2012, 01, 22 16:22

Freakling

Is it possible to run a double elimination or league type of tournament via ICCup? If not we should at least run more Bo3 and Bo5 rounds and mix the maps up in each round a bit more so we get more games on more different maps and also more player picks as feedback about player map preference.

The downside of either would be that casting would require a lot more work and organisation. Probably some kind of highlights cast from the replays could work.

We did not have many new maps since the last tournament, so I would say that, if we run a new one soon, we keep the old map pack with some updates.

Spinel Valley: May be a bit hard on Zerg because all potential 3rd gas expos are hard to defend or properly simcity at. Probably block off the bridge of the corner expos with a neutral or change it so you can hatch/sunken/evo wallin at the bridge?

Hazard Black: Remove the middle expos.

Melting Pot: Vulnerability of Protoss against contains needs to be kept an eye on, probably help Protoss wallins a bit (and/or write a short guide). Other than that it should be OK.

Gemlong: Should be OK as it is.

We could probably add two more maps, one two-player and one four-player.

Maybe add Desertec as an experimental map?

I have no good idea which other maps would be good to add. But there are plenty of 2 player maps to pick from.
modified by Freakling

2012, 01, 23 18:04

JungleTerrain

Actually, I think the natural chokes at Gemlong could be better. The top left and bottom right positions' natural chokes are awkwardly small, I think. I saw a game on Gemlong, a PvZ, where, using only a pylon, forge, and gateway, the protoss was able to completely seal the choke, making it impossible to let goons and archons out, unless you destroy a building. I think that needs to get worked.

2012, 01, 25 08:02

Freakling

I have seen that game too. I think it was Favian vs. Modesty finals.
But 7 tiles is pretty much the standard choke width for horizontal nat chokes. Normally one wouldn not place the pylon as part of the wall like that.

This is about the wallin he made in the finals:

But you can easily make a better wallin.

My personal preference for that SL would look something like this (better ramp protection and first cannon placement than the second one)

I think the tourney showed that Protoss players understand their own wallins pretty badly. Probably they just copy from pro replays all the time or something.
modified by Freakling

2012, 01, 25 14:58

PhilipJayFry

Is it possible to run a double elimination or league type of tournament via ICCup?
I'm afraid it isnt...
we could make more BO3/BO5s but this would take much longer and i dont know if the players would like playing so long without getting any prizes in the end. but maybe im wrong.
i can talk with flawless, maybe he allows me to give few points. we for sure can give Icons for a week or so.
we could also make 2 tours with the same maps just with reverse order for the maps.

2012, 01, 26 21:17

Freakling

So what about 6 maps and this format?:

The 6th map could be a bit more experimental because it's not in the rotation.

round 1 (Bo1)	round 2 (Bo3)	round 3 (Bo3)	finals (Bo5)
map I
map I	map II
		map III
map II	map I
map II
			map V
map III
map III	map IV
		map I
map IV	map III
map IV

modified by Freakling

2012, 01, 26 22:06

PhilipJayFry

Thats a very good idea. i like it.
only problem is that my experience with tours tells me that the people will be too stupid to understand this...

2012, 01, 27 16:06

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