| Nightmarjoo | | |
I guess it came out ok... Rotational symmetry is hard...
Couple things positionally that might be off:
SW/NE mains are probably a little more spacious than NW/SE. I'll look at it closer tomorow to see if it's negligible or not; I'd added to the original main size of SW/NE to make more room along the map edge; even if it is larger, the room isn't necessarily more useable for depots atleast ._.
I've done zero testing so far as I had to rush the map, so for example I don't know if the tankability of the nat from the cliff is equal for all positions.
Normally I wouldn't place a mineral block on the island, but I did it in this map to try and make up for the fact that NW is obviously closer by air to the NW island than SW is. It's more or less the same as in Zodiac (except my island isn't as gay oO), and as far as I've seen there isn't an issue with that island setup on zodiac.
The distance horizontally from min only to min only is disgusting, and I have no idea how that happened, and don't know how to fix it.
I don't know how the space feels since I've yet to open it in sc. The nats exits might need tweaking. I need to make sure (specifically for SW/NE) the min onlys are comfortable and aren't in the way.
The way how the north/south parts of the middle stick out farther reminds me of the first version of Shakras Crackling uploaded. The problem with this is that SE/NW have a narrower path leading into the middle. I can't just add some lowground to tighten the path from the ramp from SW/NE because that fucks with flank room and space in the middle.
tvp probably sucks shit and Scout will kill me, because of the highground middle from a lowground nat, but it shouldn't be too bad... I spose it's a bad example, but it works in longinus ._. Though of course the min only is easier to get in longinus...
I don't think the min only is too far away, so pvz should be fine... zvt should be fine... tvp is the mu I'm not positive about.
The islands are a mix of python style with zodiac position.
The nat cliff allows for easy harass of the nat, but also allows fairly easy access to it by land.
The map seems kind of like a blend of Python, Zodiac, Nazca, Shakras. The only "unique" aspect of the map imo are the nat cliffs.
A relatively low mineral block count, along with vulnerable nat and min-only lines, and with the main lines being fairly easy to harass, the map I guess shouldn't be quite as macroish as most maps are. The mains being 8 is more of me not realizing I put 8 blocks and copying that than a planned decision to use 8 blocks... but whatever.
Purple's gas is by far the most vulnerable, sorry, nothing I can do about that without either giving it the gas issue or making its min lines more/less vulnerable. I don't think it'll be a problem in most cases though.
Wide ramps stolen from Moon Tear and Silver Flush. The smaller inverted ramps, I think I grabbed from python and The Wake oO.
Dunno how the middle feels, might be awkward for corners.
This is for Starparty's King of the Hill Competition btw. Thanks for being patient guys, and to Lancet for having good sport'smanship (and not like saying "LOL IT'S AFTER MIDNIGHT IN CET YOU LOSE NOOBMARJOO"^^)
Fuck I hate mapping -.- Odds of me making another map in the next three months is slim rofl. I might try to make maps for the 2v2/ash competitions... the latter more likely. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| btw I didn't test walling on the nat cliffs or on the main ramps. |
| starparty | | |
did you test the ramps at all...? look again.
|
| Starparty | | |
| its a shame that this looks exactly like a map i made 2001 :P |
| flothefreak | | |
| terrible mains |
| ScoutWBF | | |
oldschool represents, yo!
The map is alright but I would remove the ground that connects the nat cliff to the island because it makes it easier to drop the island for the guy that has his natural near the cliff.
The concept is straight forward play and one likes it or not.
P.S.: o/ Heil FlotheFuhrer! |
| Crackling | | |
...
could have done it in 1h T_T
playable: yes
balanced: yes
interesting: no
good looking: no
innovating: no
getting my vote: no
PS: i'm pretty sure its very Z>P
modified by Crackling |
| ludamad | | |
| Looks rather uninspired, imo. |
| MorroW | | |
this map T>P?
|
| Nightmarjoo | | |
"good looking: no" sorry if I don't make my pics 10x brighter
"interesting: no
innovating: no" could basically say same thing about Massexpos, I mean Shakras.
"Looks rather uninspired, imo" specifically what don't you like?
"The map is alright but I would remove the ground that connects the nat cliff to the island because it makes it easier to drop the island for the guy that has his natural near the cliff" I'll probably do that, makes sense.
"terrible mains" I assume you're just saying that because I say it about all of your maps, but if you're serious, rofl -.- I'm going to test the map in a bit, one of the things I'm pretty sure beforehand that is ok are the mains lol.
"did you test the ramps at all...? look again" Not yet, but I'll be testing it soon oO What specifically should I be looking for that's bad?
"PS: i'm pretty sure its very Z>P" Bare in mind how easy it is to harass the expos; p can FE fine and bisu off that, which exemplifies harass while taking his 3rd and defending it with his army in the middle. I don't think immediately it's blatantly z>p.
"this map T>P?" Don't think so, what makes you say that? Just because of the tankability of the expos? Bare in mind p will have map control first, and if his min only is getting tanked he basically already lost. The lower mineral counts I think slows terran's initial push, giving protoss even more time. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Whoever posted the gmcs is a moron btw. |
| Crackling | | |
i'm not talking about the pic but about the map itself, the deco is mostly sloppy and there arent like any doodads?
its z>p ez. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I did have to rush the decoration. I do plan on making it look better overall, just not right now lol.
Since you're sure it's z>p, do you have any ideas on how to help p without fucking t? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| OK, going to test it now :D I'll get back to you guys on what all sucks about the map >< |
| NastyMarine | | |
| Idk. I like it. But it is lacking a lot of style. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| rofl this map is garbage. You can declare lancet's map winner now... ima work on this map though lol |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Gonna upload an updated map soon: so far I tightened the nat choke, modified some areas to look a little better visually, implemented scout's suggestion, and fixed an embarassing ramp problem lol. And I modified the main mineral formations.
Things I'm gonna work on later: decoration obviously, and the mains. They're not bad, but the distance from sl to nat is a bit longer than I'd like, and the mains feel kind of big from where the sl is. I'm not positive on how I'm going to address this. Odds are I'll add a 9th block to the mains, but I dunno for sure. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Ok, here's what I've got so far. The above post is accurate. |
| Crackling | | |
| adding 1 more gas at the nat would solve the pvz problem :) |
| spinesheath | | |
| What is the meaning of the name, btw? |
| ProTosS4EveR | | |
Idrakpdf Spleovbisqo
something like this |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| It means "finally" or "at last" in gaelic. |
| SiaBBo | | |
I think it is pretty nice.
modified by SiaBBo |
| testbug | | |
| i added the yellow ! GMCS long time ago, guess you didn't find it because GMCs smap |
| Testbug | | |
| red and orange are closer to the islands. is that imbalanced? |
| LostTampon | | |
| ...but they are farer away from the other island :P |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| imo it is a little imbalanced, but the mineral blocks helps balance it. |
| Rye | | |
| I like the Eastern and Western islands. Rocky ground is great for prohibiting building, and allows people to easily drop troops in. Don't like the fact that red and orange are closer to them, though. Other than that, great work! |
| tktkvroom | | |
only thing i'd like to see changed is the small ramp on the other side of the min only wider & the middle given a lot more time deco wise.
those are really only 2 complains other than that i like how this map turned out, love bringing the cliff behind the nat idea back & the islands too.
imo this should have won comp :l but its to late <3 joel <3 |
| testbug | | |
hi tk also in my opinion this map should have won the competiton too, with just some 15 minutes edits:
Click to enlarge
modified by testbug |
| ptar | | |
| <3 Testbug |
| Rye | | |
| Hah, bigger ramps. This is good. |
| Testbug | | |
| chobo abuser :( |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Ok, version 1.3 uploaded.
Changes: Decoration heavily modified by testbug.
Nats tightened (from original version, about same tightness as in 1.1 version).
Main formations altered, and moved along with the sl further into the main, to be closer to the nats.
The middle itself was modified.
Islands modified.
Nat cliffs enlarged.
Center ramps widened.
3 reps on this current version uploaded. |
| Lancet | | |
| Looks much better. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Of course it does, the picture is brighter. |
| Lancet | | |
| LOL, I didn't mean that. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Yeah suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure :) |
| LGI | | |
| Still sux... And as a zerg i would never play vs terran! |
| MorroW | | |
nice improvement, btw that high temple in middle u placed at teals big exit. if u compare teals wide exit with purples, u can see big difference.
i would have put the high temple at purples ramp instead |
| Lancet | | |
Whatever tickles your fancy. Shorten those ridges next to the ramps in the South (see GMCS) they stick out and are an eyesore.
Oops, the arrows don't quite point at them but rather cover them, sorry for that.
modified by Lancet |
| Testbug | | |
i don0't understabnd it, what does shorten means?
what does "eyesore" means? can you make a jpg explaining it? |
| Lancet | | |
| They just stick out like "pointy things". Eyesore means it doesn't look good. You can cut and paste from other ridges or choose the right tiles to reduce their lenght and make them stick out less (but you know that already). |
| trcc | | |
| Adding some kind of neutral building to block the cliff behind the nat could help? or mineral block idk just a bad suggestion :o Don't listen to me !! |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
oops forgot ovy spot ._.
Testbug's rationale on the ruins/temple placement in the middle was that the tighter area shouldn't have room for turrets, but the open, easily flankable area can allow for turrets without issue. Personally I'd rather the temple be in the more open part too, but whatever ._.
Eyesore = ugly.
The nat cliff is sposed to be open/buildable/reachable etc.
modified by Nightmarjoo |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Almost -> Final. Ovy spot added. Irrelevant tank holes filled in with critters.
As for you who ask "if they were irrelveant why did you fill them in???", it made a good excuse to add critters. And for you who says "who needs an excuse to add critters to a map!?" I AGREE
Map renamed Faoi, because I couldn't pronounce the 2nd part anyway. Also by renaming it I can remove the version tag.
Testing time ._. Map becomes user final if it plays well, and maybe league if it plays well enough that yello-ant adds it to iccup :D
Thank you Crackling for help on where to put the ovy spot :) |
| ProTosS4EveR | | |
| gmcs |
| Crackling | | |
| positional variity! |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| <3 map updated, with gas :) |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Map updated again, min onlys mineral blocks fixed ._. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| pic not updated (crackling went to bed) |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Ok I'm working on map with testbug atm. Should be done soon... |
| Testbug | | |
| why special thankx to crackling? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| He helped me with the first ovy spot. Also he's going to mass test it with me tomorow ._. (or so he said!) |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Ok, map is pretty much done. Melee/obs uploaded.
Testbug, I did a slight edit to the map that isn't in your picture. I added some doodads to the nat cliff for SW and NE, and to their nat, to make the choke size equal in squares to the other two guys.
Tomorow will entail some mass testing to make sure it's perfect for iccup.
I already updated to final though ._. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| And I reset the gmcs ._. |
| Lancet | | |
| There are tanks spots among the doodads on the cliffs next to the nats and the doodads look really ugly. Apart from this the map looks good. You are going to leave those pointy things there just to annoy me aren't you? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I'll test it but I don't think there are tank holes there.
Those doodads are there to secure the ovy spot. They block vision. A marine standin on the cliff despite being within shooting range of the ovy cannot see it without help of a lifted building. Essentially, the ovy spot is just as good here as it is on python. Maybe better, I don't know.
Of course, now that I know they annoy you, no way can I remove them :) |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| I played a short zvt vs yello-ant. It shows that the ovy positions work. It shows where you can place your ovys. It shows how easy it is to check your nat ramp (as z), making a tank rush safe to fight vs. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Added a better zvt replay.
I edited NE/SW's main formation, it mined too slowly. Not in the pic atm ._. |
| Testbug | | |
| added pic |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
More formations modified. All have been tested.
Nat cliff/plateaus removed. I don't feel like explaining why. |
| Lancet | | |
| I don't know how to call this but can't you make instead those hill formations with holes that we sometimes make to separate things? See my map Temple of Ghelia south of blue and north of red, I think it would look better than all those doodads. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| The picture is old. |
| Crackling | | |
| OVERLORDS IS HAPPY NAW |
| Testbug | | |
it's okay but has lost the 'Testbug style' :(
(only nightmarjoo knows what am i talking about, i told him why do i love this map) |
| Crackling | | |
| LOTS OF REPS KEKEKEKEK ^______^ |
| Testbug | | |
| wow, did you 18-0ed him? |
| Crackling | | |
| NE and SW min formation needs to be changed, it mines a bit slower than the others |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
It's not much different; testing showed a difference of like 100 minerals after 2000 were mined; also it's too late, and I'm lazy.
Crackling did not 18-0 me, it was more like 11-1 ty, and I had almost no sleep the night(s) before so of course I played bad. I raped Crackling on Shakras anyway :( |
| MorroW | | |
| ^^ |
| Crackling | | |
no its pretty much weird because i didnt have 100 minerals when i had 100gas for my speedupgrade when i 9pooled...
i did it 2 times and i was on ~80 mins while having 104 gas, i usually have around 110 mins... thats PRETTY much. |
| MorroW | | |
| haha this map went to iccup xD |
| SiaBBo | | |
| Yeah, I can't understand why this is on iCCup. |
| Crackling | | |
| its goooooooooood |
| ScoutWBF | | |
| this map lost it's uniqueness. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| @crackling your face >< |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/replays/zvt%20scv119%20faoi%20loss%20gg.rep
not a great game, but one of the better/closer games I've had on the map. It is somewhat back and forth, but I'd say he had the lead most of the game, and my shitty defiler control didn't help. Worth watching just to see the map in action.
modified by Nightmarjoo |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Crackling, maybe experiment with which minerals to mine. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the farther minerals mine faster than the closer ones, the drone goes faster on them for some reason =/ |
| MorroW | | |
i cant understand this is iccup so many balances not done,
example for terran wall outside nat are different from different positions
same with protoss 2gate wall and protoss fe's
i also see some random dirt that is unwalkable then its wtf
and those islands wtf they are so different placed from players
dont missunderstand me i like map just that i think its not done |
| Crackling | | |
morrow i'm sorry to say this but as a C- player with a 40% winscore you arent really able to theorycraft about balance...
this map is fine. |
| MorroW | | |
actually im soon d+ with over 50% wins (very proud) ^^
and btw last seasons i never played with non-korean only as most ppl do, i game vs anyone thats same rank. a friend of mine got 23-0 and he isnt even better than i am sitting with 20-15 ;; |
| RaDiX | | |
| Lol I win you all! Crackling is really noob, never seen MorroW play... |
| trcc | | |
Great work from both of you :)
Just a question, did the mains ended enough big in the massive testing? |
| Crackling | | |
| yep, absolutly :D |
| Testbug | | |
| yeah, even start location needed to be moved from the edge (like list temple) to near to the ramp (like python, but pythong have a island behind start location, so that space is to preven siege tanks to attack workers) thatnx for commenting master trcc, what did you have on mind? i didn't understand you. |
| MorroW | | |
imo the main minerals would do better of a pylon distance to edge of map
btw iccup started, < 10-10 ^^ me and my clan racing to C+ :P
modified by MorroW |
| Grief_Stricken | | |
maybe it's time to say some words about this map -as favour, in return- for nightmarjoo 'cause he always spend alot of time writing huge comments for my maps.why i'm doing this? 'cause he and he's cheeky brothers(you know them all)start to believe they have a good/great map here,and their judgement about maps is exalted over anyone else.in fact the opposite is true.
to the map. about originality, i wont insist cause he admit in his first comment that the map has alot similarities.you can read all about this in the first comment in this thread.ok,the map was several time upgraded,and it is fair to say it is by now alot better than in the first version.
and all in vain. why? CAUSE THIS MAP WAS & IT'S STILL IMBALANCED!!!!!!! 87 comments before mine and alot of reps obviously don't allow you to see it.BUT DUDES! IT WAS ALL THE TIME IN THE PICTURE!so much about you shouldn't judge a map in the picture.can't you see how close the islands are to red and teal???if the players start from opossite corners of the map it would be fine.but if not it's imba.this in a 1v1.in a 2v2 the opposite is right.imagine a party that starts from red & teal - easy control over 6 expos.purple & blue easy control over 4 expos.
and if they accept a map like this,not very original and with such a imba,in icc it is clear they are just incompetent.incompetent like the one who offer them this map - no offense - it's just the truth.
one word about the decoration,cause you praise it so much.yeah,it's better compared to the deco from the first version but still not so good as you and some other people believe.and i think i prove it enough that i know what i'm talkin about. |
| Rye | | |
Not to be a bother, but is it just me, or are Grief_Stricken's comments negative more often then not?
It would appear to coincide with his name! :O |
| MorroW | | |
POSITIONAL IMBALANCE;
- purples and teals min-onlys are more vult from cliff harass friendly
- reds first expand (nat i think its called) can build turrets right to the gas, blue cant. blue will have it more annoying tvz mutalisk play than red
- nat chokes/openings are different from different players, some positions can wall (supply + rax vs zea etc) and some cant
- outside purples small middle ramp there is a outsticking high dirt (which favours terran offencive upwalling vs protoss) and other side of map doesnt have
- behind purples min-only there is a hole (where u can example drop high templars or jump scvs to for accident etc), this is what i call a bad mineral line :P
- reds and purples main ramp are different created, purples got a small outsticking unwalkable+unbuildable dot and reds doesnt, i dont know if u thought of it but
- all main mineral-lines but blues got a little path, blues doesnt (effects lingrush mostly)
- at purples ramp there is unbuildable hight dirt (effects terran cuse he cant wall!!)
DECORATION; middle high dirt looks kinds bad, alittle right to the ruins there are misstiles, lazy cut copy pasters :D
came all of a sudden this went to iccup, it isnt even finnished and i dont think it is balanced. to be honest dont be angry at my post this took a while to find and i write this mostly to help you. plz fix all things i said ~~~~my longest post wooo :DD
modified by MorroW
and tbh whole this concept imo is just compleatly imbalanced. even if u would fix this i wouldnt say its balanced
modified by MorroW |
| Crackling | | |
| This post is not displayed due to its content |
| MorroW | | |
| u think i write all that to joke? |
| Lancet | | |
| Crackling that comment was not funny. Just say you disagree with a person and explain why, don't insult them. |
| ScoutWBF | | |
Yo Homie, in da hood everybody is da enemy ya understand?
The map sucks, who cares. I'll get my +140 per game easily. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I don't give a shit about the walling on the nats, who the fuck walls their nat choke 100%? lol. They are equal in size, but buildings are not square, hence the chokes will wall differently.
I noticed the that one bad tile next to bottom right's gas after it was too late. It shouldn't make much of a difference, as you can just move your turret over a square.
The thing by purple's ramp won't effect anything -.- You say it effects walling? wtf there's rocks there anyway -.-
The thing by purple's ramp was unfortunately missed, but does not prevent a depot depot rax wall-in.
Blue's min line lacks a gap, yes, that was me trying to get a formation with minerals above the cc to mine well, and that ended up being the best thing I could find at the moment (for terran). It's unfortunate that those min lines still mine poorly (for zerg atleast), but that gap shouldn't matter much. This is something I saw neglectable because that same positional difference is also present in python.
As for the island distance being imbalanced, this is present in zodiac. Also, my islands have a mineral preventing cc landing, while zodiac's don't, making mine less imbalanced than zodiac? I don't see people whining about zodiac's islands (probably because few people ever use islands, except sometimes on python, and rarely in other non-island maps).
As for the bottom players being more vulnerable, I see what you're saying, but I think it's certainly neglibable. If a vult or whatever is there attacking you, then any other unit could be attacking you there too, thus you don't have control over the middle, thus you either shouldn't have taken that expo, or have lost the game regardless of whether or not the expo is more or less vulnerable.
OH NOES THERE'S SOME BAD COPY/PASTE IN THE MIDDLE
who cares? Anyway, that's testbug's fault not mine.
Grief, more or less everything you said is valid, except a couple small things. First of all, the map has more or less no unique feature, nothing is experimental, all of its features and concepts by this point have all been executed before, but the layout, the execution and mixture of all of these concepts and features made into this layout, is original. This map has never been made before, despite certainly sharing similarities to many other popular maps.
Regardless of its similarities to other maps, its middle/lowground layout is actually fairly unique, with only longinus and nazca bearing any resemblence, and its vulnerable min only and narrow lowground part making it so much more critical than on those maps to control the highground. That is to say, despite its similarities, it does in fact, have slightly different gameplay. The map shares a lot with other maps to make playing the map comfortable and familiar. No one will play a radically different map. To prove my point, how often do people play arkanoid? Monty Hall? Usan Nation? Virtually no one plays those maps because they have such different gameplay. Are they all good and unique maps? I'd say so, but that's not going to convince players to play on the maps.
The decision to put the map into the pack, imo was not an incompetently made decision. The map offers slightly different gameplay, has a unique face, adds something new to the mappack. Is the map perfect? Fuck no. But then again, no map is perfect. Python isn't perfect, and it's one of the more statistically balanced maps currently. Imperfections in a map to not prevent it from having good gameplay, of course the more you have and more severe they are, the more they can deter the map from having good gameplay, but I don't think these issues ruin the map. In certain situations they will create imbalances which can flaw the gameplay. All maps have those, though I don't defend them by any means.
The decision to put the map into the pack was certainly a gamble on yello-ant's part. He was aware of the fact that it was highly likely the map would have flaws, but chose to let it in anyway. MYM.Strelok looked at the map, in game, and for a substantial amount of time. He looked at it, and tested several features of the map. He said that he thought the map was good. Imperfect =! bad.
Morrow, as for the concept's problems, since the map has not had hundreds of serious games, its gameplay/concept has yet to be proven good or bad, though the test games have shown it to be largely good. The position imbalances are minor in most cases, with the most severe ones even being present in other "pro" maps. Feel free to call the map bad, I don't ask you to play on it.
Also, several of these positional imbalances could have been fixed before the map went into iccup. A lack of time resulted in several of them being unnoticed. Thanks a lot for actually commenting the map with issues, after it doesn't matter.
In April there will be ~8 new korean maps going into the iccup pack. A modification of faoi (improved/edited version) will go into the pack at the same time. So far, there are a couple of things I'm definitely changing, feel free to mention more.
Top right's formation will be further worked on, and tested with zerg, not stupid terran ><
The tile at bottom right's nat will be fixed that prevents building near the gas.
An unbuildable tile will be added near top left's main ramp, same as the one present at bottom left's main ramp, forcing a 2depot rax wall, which is the same as the other three. Currently, top left can be walled with just depot/rax.
The tile issues in the middle (with weird decoration line) will be fixed. Possibly decoration allover can be improved.
I might move the islands closer to the center between the two players, unless this messes up the highground.
I'll decide which way I like better for the min onlys, with the gap behind them in the cliff or without it. I think it exists there currently because of the difference in mineral formation and might be unfixable without altering the min lines (this is testbug's fault).
I might move the 12/6 cliff towards the SW and NE to widen it a little, and alter the min onlys to fit there, the way they currently are on the other positions. This is only if it doesn't make the path near the mains of SW/NE too narrow. |
| MorroW | | |
"OH NOES THERE'S SOME BAD COPY/PASTE IN THE MIDDLE
who cares? Anyway, that's testbug's fault not mine."
you told me i spend too little time in my maps and now you say "who cares?"
"of its features and concepts by this point have all been executed before, but the layout, the execution and mixture of all of these concepts and features made into this layout, is original.", anyone can explain what this means?
"The thing by purple's ramp won't effect anything -.- You say it effects walling? wtf there's rocks there anyway -.-", okey now i dont really understand but here is a picture of what i mean: http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3333333ds2.png - as u maybe see zealots and zerglings can pass this wall. other positions can at least block vs zealots
and this also, this is purples small middle ramp. u can see the outsticking high dirt that goes around the ramp: http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=123321gd8.png
"I don't give a shit about the walling on the nats, who the fuck walls their nat choke 100%? lol. They are equal in size, but buildings are not square, hence the chokes will wall differently." - when u make a map u should think about many strategies even if ur self dont use them. ive seen many times terran walling choke and 1fac fe vs p, u also they they r equal in size this picture should explan alot for you: http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1233333gd8.png
ok enough for this i tell you what i think and ill i get is insulting and u didnt really seem to read my posts carefully. here i must show pictures of your own map cuse u only read it slacky
modified by MorroW |
| Crackling | | |
| morrow plz wall in your nat at python with equall buildings on each position :O |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| To whoever posted the gmcs, please read my comment 20 comments up, which says I fixed all the tank holes. The image isn't updated, as I said. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Faoi II
Islands moved, they are now approximately two tiles off of being exactly between both starting locations
Tiles everywhere edited, including to force top right's main's ramp to require depot/depot/rax walling, removing bad tile at bottom right's nat, correction of copy/paste error in middle, simple decoration changes and additions
Top right and bottom left's main minerals modified
Gap behind red/blue's min onlys removed
Obs Triggers slightly modified |
| Gil | | |
Hi Nightmarjoo (& Testbug).
I'm organizing a tourney with friends and want to use Faoi in the map pool.
I have a question regarding the mineral-onlies. You say "Gap behind red/blue's min onlys removed" but it's actually red and TEAL's mineral-onlies that have been changed. I'm guessing that's a typo in your text, but looking at blue's mineral-only, it seems like there's a gap behind them as well.
Is that another change you're gonna make ? The tourney starts on March 24 so I'll go with any updates you'll make before that date.
Cheers,
Gillias. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Yeah I mean red/teal, I'm blind sorry :) The space behind red and teal was fairly large I guess, larger than anything behind blue atm. The negligible problem with red/teal's min only was that the space behind them allowed for closer drops, significant for reaver I guess, and it prevented some ranged units that can hit blue/purple's miners from the cliff at certain spots from hitting miners at red/teal's min onlys.
At the moment there's nothing I plan on changing in the map.
That's really cool that you're using the map in a tourney! Try to save replays and either upload in this thread, or email them to me at iuliuspwnsall@yahoo.com :)
If there's anything I can help facilitate with regards to the map for your tourney, just tell me (edits, etc). |
| Gil | | |
All right. Thanks for the info, Nightmarjoo.
I'll make sure to upload the replays here when the tourney is over. It'll be a while, because the tourney runs until early May.
I noticed one minor thing you forgot to change : in the map description it still reads Faoi as the map's title. That won't prevent us from starting the tourney though. :)
Thanks for the map and the support !
Cheers,
Gillias. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
What should it say oO?
That's a long tourney :O |
| Testbug | | |
| should it say faoi II? xD |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| lol oh :) nah I'm not changing that, though I'm considering a couple small updates on the map. I'll get them uploaded on the 23rd at the latest. |
| MorroW | | |
| its the only 2v2 motw in iccup atm, congrats. now i must play it^^. it is a good 2v2 map i think |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Gillias, please do NOT use the current version. I'm working on Faoi III, and it won't be ready until later today (the 24th). If you have to use it and I haven't posted again, it's fine to use the current one, but I'll have a better one soon if you can wait ._. |
| Gil | | |
Hey Nightmarjoo,
I've informed the players that a new version of Faoi is on the way and that we'll use it. If the new map isn't ready when the players start their first match, they'll use Faoi II instead.
Looking forward to the new version !
Thanks for the support,
Gil. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Sorry I couldn't have the map ready for today. Blame testbug, he went to bed. |
| MorroW | | |
| love this map now <3 16-2 |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
FAOI III (Final)
Map was 100% remake from scratch, so it's now editable (thanks to protection + unprotection only tile editing was possible, and it's certainly not practical).
The middle was changed, and red/teal's min only areas were altered, and the distances and sizes are almost equal everywhere. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| oh, islands have 8 minerals now. |
| MorroW | | |
F A O I
that O looks like a C ^^ |
| Gil | | |
Thanks for the new Faoi III, Nightmarjoo & Testbug !
A quick inspection didn't reveal any obvious bugs. I've replaced the old Faoi II with the new Faoi III in our tourney map pool. The first matches are played today, so you made it on time. :)
Thanks again, and I'll get back to you with the replays once the tourney is over.
Cheers !
Gillias. |
| spinesheath | | |
| NEVER protect a map without keeping an unprotected version! You really should have known, NM. |
| RaDiX | | |
| what is faci? |
| LML | | |
"Map was 100% remake from scratch"
oO ?:d |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Thanks Gillias, glad I made it!
I know spines T_T I dunno what happened to my unprotected copy. I guess I overwrote it on accident...
christ radix -.-
yeah lml, 100% from scratch. When you unprotect a protected map, you just have the tiles. So you can't use the isometric brush, and tile editing on a mass scale is just... not practical in any sense of the word. The alternative is to copy/paste into a normal, blank map and edit with tile editing afterwords (what I did with Faoi II), but it's just so much easier to use the isometric brush =/ |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| ok, updated Faoi III with a huge edit. I fixed the 'O' in Faoi in the middle of the map. |
| DG)SpoilR | | |
I suppose it plays well.I'm not sure if the middle is not a bit too open.Also I fear the islands could influence negative a 2v2,in case one party own them.Maybe only 6 min/island could help a bit.I will try to see how it plays myself...
|
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Well, they were originally had 6 minerals, but I increased it to 8 to help protoss.
The islands on python have 8, and they are less vulnerable, so I think 8 is fine here.
I don't know anything about 2v2 balance, and didn't consider 2v2 at all when I made the map. I'm a 1v1 player, all I know is 1v1. I can 2v2 ok, but I don't understand the fundamentals, just micro/macro =/ |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Comparison of original Faoi to most recent version |
| Lancet | | |
| Ugh, I like the old Faoi better. |
| MorroW | | |
tbh now i may sound whiny but middle seems too open :X
anyway only good for 2v2^^ |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I know what you mean morrow, about the middle. I did it for whiny protoss though =/
I can always add shit to it if testing shows it's too open. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| lancet, the current faoi is literally superior in every aspect to the original one >< |
| Lancet | | |
| Communication problem here. I meant I like Faoi-II better, I don't like what you did to the center in Faoi-III. |
| MorroW | | |
| gj u fixed the C to an O, now it looks like a Q ^^ |
| RaDiX | | |
| what is faqi? |
| LostTampon | | |
| it still looks like FAG! :=) |
| RaDiX | | |
| what is fag! ? |
| Rye | | |
A fag is a derogatory term used to describe a homosexual person. Or a cigarette.
j/k, I haven't a clue. |
| LostTampon | | |
FAG! could also be something that happens when you fail to spell FAOI in a map :)
modified by LostTampon |
| Rye | | |
| ...or that. |
| Lancet | | |
Yeah it's in the chorus of a song from World War-I (Pack up your troubles in your old kit-bag)
"Pack up your troubles in your old kit-bag,
And smile, smile, smile,
While you’ve a lucifer to light your fag,
Smile, boys, that’s the style.
What’s the use of worrying?
It never was worth while, so
Pack up your troubles in your old kit-bag,
And smile, smile, smile."
Lucifer here is a match.
modified by Lancet |
| testbug | | |
| shit, center sux, can't i do some edits there??? u.u |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Ok I lied, here's another final version! Modified middle to suck balls less. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Crackling I removed your image because 1. it was too green 2. it was (4)faoi(n).jpg which seriously fucks up every link in existance because they link to (4)Faoi(n).jpg, I kid you not.
Point taken though, I added an even brighter image. |
| Crackling | | |
| wat |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| slight edit again ._. |
| Testbug | | |
| crushed Norad ii' lol |
| Testbug | | |
| can't blue main gass be hited from lowground? :S |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I dunno
what about a crushed norad II? oO |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Decent 2v2 added. It shows the map pretty well imo. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| more reps added =/ |
| Crackling | | |
| stop it joel ._. |
| Gil | | |
Hiho.
Here I am back with the replays of the tournament. The tourney was a great success ! Everyone enjoyed themselves and there were some good games.
Faoi III turned out a great arena as most of the better games took place here. Two of the most memorable games in the tourney were played on it.
Make sure to check out :
DPTR(P) vs Tristram_Hero(Z) game 2 in Group C.
A nailbiting finish as both players race to eliminate each other.
Pokebunny(T) vs monkeycid(T) game 1 in Main semi-final 2.
A good TvT with a great comeback.
Thanks again for the support Nightmarjoo ! I'll be looking for more cool maps when the time comes for another tourney.
Cheers,
Gillias. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Oh wow thanks for all the reps! I'll be sure to look through them :)
I'm glad the tournament well. Did the players have anything to say about the map in general?
We'll be sure to have tons of great maps by the time the next tournament comes, and thanks again for using a bwm map :) |
| Gil | | |
Hey Nightmarjoo.
I remember our Terran players didn't like the fact that bottom left needs 3 depots + rax to wall in, compared to the other starts which need the standard 2 depots + rax.
On Faoi IV it's the same thing.
Cheers,
Gil. |
| MorroW | | |
| nightmarjoo i saw now u fixed the chokes of the nats that i told u to along time ago :D (i win i win) |
| LasTCursE | | |
| profesional map :) |
| spinesheath | | |
BWCL will use Faoi in Season 30. I guess they didn't ask you about it, but now you know it, Nightmarjoo ;)
http://starcraft2.ingame.de/bwcl/kommentare.php?newsid=81685
Interestingly enough, only as 2n2 map. I don't know how strict that 1n1/2n2 map thing is; I personally like to zvp on faoi, actually. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
lol, I didn't know, thanks :)
Interesting that it's 2v2 map.
It's so cool to have my map used :D |
| MorroW | | |
at the naturals chokes. zerglings can pass between the doodad and cliff at 3 positions out of 4. the down left position is where a zergling can not pass zergling between doodad and cliff. u should make the same condition for all positions but personally i would make all positions like down left (where u cant pass ling through like that).
behind the naturals the terrain is very different. at down right position there are many doodads causing it hard to place spores behind. and with turrets the scvs might get stuck.
where u can place turrets vs mutalisks is very different for down right position also.
the down left and up left positions are impossible to 1rax 2supply wall at vs zealots.
the horisontal mineralformation mains u can place 2 supply depots behind(4hex). the vertical only 2(5hex). u should have equal hex or optional, go after building like supply depot that is very common to use behind mains. personally i would move the vertical lines 1hex away from edges to fix this issue.
up right position got pretty bad mineral formation in main. maybe u should look more into this.
this is a personal thought; there are too many critters at this map. they may effect gameplay negative in some micro wars and they are very disturbing when they appear at minimap u look at it and its nothing. i would say max 4 critter more is just ridicilous
this is a thing i said about voices. example u can take blue storm how they fixed it: "and just for positional balance. the down left position got "null terrain" corner by default. u should put an unbuildable doodad in the other corners to make this more balanced."
i hope u can fix all these issues before next season starts of iccup. i heard ppl avoiding to play this map just cuse of this terran walling and mineral formation stuff are sloppy. withoutit i think this map would be great and same comes to voices. (u should send in that map for the record) |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
"at the naturals chokes. zerglings can pass between the doodad and cliff at 3 positions out of 4. the down left position is where a zergling can not pass zergling between doodad and cliff. u should make the same condition for all positions but personally i would make all positions like down left (where u cant pass ling through like that)"
lol fixed.
Bottom-right is actually the only spot where you cannot get scvs stuck by making turrets :) I am satisfied with the amount of building room for turrets. I was able to get some scvs stuck, but that's because I made turrets in every single spot (8+ turrets, more than enough by far). I did however modify top left's nat's formation to allow a gap between the minerals, which highly reduces the ability/potential to get an scv stuck. I don't feel that it is at all hard to place turrets.
"the down left and up left positions are impossible to 1rax 2supply wall at vs zealots"
Fixed. I altered some tiles at bottom left, and one tile at top left and you can now make a zlot-tight depot depot rax wall there.
"up right position got pretty bad mineral formation in main. maybe u should look more into this" It was actually better than in the original version. I believe that 100% horizontal formations are 100% impossible to balance for zerg without stacking minerals (I didn't try stacking minerals, but I think it could work fine). I altered the formation again though, and while it's ugly as shit, and a half-vertical/half-horizontal gaia-esque formation, but it mines normally for zerg.
"the horisontal mineralformation mains u can place 2 supply depots behind(4hex). the vertical only 2(5hex). u should have equal hex or optional, go after building like supply depot that is very common to use behind mains. personally i would move the vertical lines 1hex away from edges to fix this issue"
Good call. Fixed.
"this is a personal thought; there are too many critters at this map. they may effect gameplay negative in some micro wars and they are very disturbing when they appear at minimap u look at it and its nothing. i would say max 4 critter more is just ridicilous" imo it's fine.
"this is a thing i said about voices. example u can take blue storm how they fixed it: "and just for positional balance. the down left position got "null terrain" corner by default. u should put an unbuildable doodad in the other corners to make this more balanced" I think it's silly, but I fixed it.
Thanks for more in-depth input. All things imo are fixed now. |
| testbug | | |
i guess Nightmarjoo can do it very well.
@Joel: PM if you cannot do it. i'll be low on time this days. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Map edited. |
| Testbug | | |
what exatly have you done?
i was thinking if the minonly /or a brand new 3rd gass) can be placed in the other side (like another nat like R-point or Jim Raynor Memory?
because that watter isn't doing anything right now. the watter can be used to muta harras the new expos.
maybe minonly can be moved, ot adding a new expo.
if you need to move the mains in order to place the islands it won't be a problem because it won't be imba main-nat island vs island-main-nat anymore.
it will just be expo-mian-expo + island + expo-main-expo. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| what? |
| anotak | | |
i would consider making the middle lowground (but not raising the nat, just making the cliff edge a wall liek wuthering or tau mains) if that makes sense, just all lowground?
then it's not like a ripoff of the new promaps lol |
| spinesheath | | |
How about the other way round? Faoi definately is older than Return of the King.
If I see that correctly you reduced the width of the smaller ramps to the middle (among other things)? I'd rather see them larger. |
| MorroW | | |
the minerals in the corner prevents hidden hatcheries or also will creat an akwark moment when hatchery simple not just buildable. just put a doodad it brings much less attention also.
up left position does not seem to be possible to wall at with 1rax2supply vs zealots. screenshot please :)
i dont think this map needs more expansions. |
| XeLious | | |
| the 5 and 11 naturals suck but other than that I like it |
(4)Faoi IV
-
NightSkY[x.PG] vs 
Testbug(1on1, 1.15)
NightSkY[x.PG] vs 
Muffin-Lzuruha; Hate_Me(2on2, 1.15)Faoi IV(n).jpg)
