| flothefreak | | |
i just NEEDED to pimp this, as radix pimping turned out to be a desaster (imo). i couldnt see this potential being unused/unexploited, so i made some pimping of my own and of how i think it's best.
-no wall-in possible (barrier buys time)
-dbl gas expos have 2500 gas each
-minonly has 2 blocks of only 500
this is original version:
Gulamala.jpg)
this is radix pimp (mapthread):
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=2317
no tests of gameplay or balance, but i will surely try this out because it is very interesting. the only thing i daresay is that the mobile races will have to spent time opening up the wall.
modified by flothefreak
modified by Testbug |
| RaDiX | | |
| ok this rox! I love you flo <3 |
| flothefreak | | |
| i love your concepts ;> |
| RaDiX | | |
| test? |
| RaDiX | | |
haha, thanks ^^
Btw, u sure that blue's main isn't bigger than red's?
modified by RaDiX |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Not having tested this theory, blue's main looks a little bigger than red's.
It's ok. I don't have really anything to say about the map except that scouting will be a pain and that there is no early game here assuming that players play it ground, which of course they might not opt for. |
| NastyMarine | | |
| u did a really good job on this flo, very nice. |
| Testbug | | |
| 128x96 |
| flothefreak | | |
oops yeah, blue main is definetly bigger. i didnt notice that and will try to enlarge it. changed settings to correct map size as well.
i think there will be an early game just BECAUSE you have a hard time scouting. you can feel safe behind the wall, but when your opponent DOES a rushing build and kills of 1 building, you can get in trouble just because you didnt expect an early attack. |
| Testbug | | |
oh yes, blue is bigger.
but remember the starcraft keyboard where you move, attack, stop, sit down, stand up, patrol and say hi.
so you must make the red bigger (don't use the mirror thing)
red natural ramps is easy to access.
blue natural ramp is some blocked/hidden.
but don't think it's really necessary?
huumm.. at 9 and 3 you have a ramp in that minonly. looks like you did something wrong, what is that ramp for?
i don't like this map but here i go:
1)inverted ramps are very buildable
2)the blue center expo near power generators can be protectes with several photon cannons'turrets
red's can not.
3)Red natural expo can be defended with a lot of turrets.
blue can not (and if you do, you will cover te ramp)
4)you can build a lot of turrets near red main mineral fields.
blue don't have that space.
5)Red natural expo:
a guy lifts a barrax and a factory:
you can build machine shop in the high ground.
Barracks can wall your buildabe ramp
(or only dropping a tank and a SCV building a turret/supply depot in that inverted ramp)
Blue natural: can't wall the ramp.
6)Red can Wal in (yes, it can)
blue can not
your Luna the final doodad is not in the same position.
7)you can build a phtono cannon behind the red's center expo power generators.
blue is unbuildable.
8)Blue minonly have 2x1500 + 3x1000 + 2x500
red minonly have 5x1500 + 2x500
i think that diference will make the red some better because it will have more money in the end.
even if you don't use that expo, in a late game, you go for a minonly to end the game but you get all those fields faster :(
9)maybe some decoration? |
| flothefreak | | |
0)red natural ramps is easy to access.
blue natural ramp is some blocked/hidden.
but don't think it's really necessary?
---> i will make this equal. i had it balanced but reshaped red's minerals without correcting the ramp. thanks for the hint.
huumm.. at 9 and 3 you have a ramp in that minonly. looks like you did something wrong, what is that ramp for?
--->for units to move up there and harass, like vult/lurk/psi/tank. it's a tactical element. just with other mechanices than a standard cliff
i don't like this map but here i go:
1)inverted ramps are very buildable
--->yeah. i hate this too, but the map didnt work out without them. remember it's not my concept and basic layout, neither did i choose the tileset (although it is the only one where you can make this concept reasonable integrated. it's somehow a twilight concept. space maybe as alternative)
2)the blue center expo near power generators can be protectes with several photon cannons'turrets
red's can not.
--->i dont get what you mean. the only thing i could see you referring to is that i have to push the outer disrupters a little bit to the left to have a total equal size. still, the difference is less than small; that's why i didnt edit it right away after noticing it after uploading...my bad, though. i was sloppy :<
3)Red natural expo can be defended with a lot of turrets.
blue can not (and if you do, you will cover te ramp)
--->the natural entrance size is the same. i always shape and place expos (esp. naturals) with the help of hatcheries and their creep. there is no difference when expoing, even though it seems like due to the standard ramps.
4)you can build a lot of turrets near red main mineral fields.
blue don't have that space.
--->there is a small space behind the minerals at the cliff/mainbase edge. i forgot doodads blockings there which i noted in my mind when mapping but didnt recall when decorating. thanks again for bringing it to my attention.
5)Red natural expo:
a guy lifts a barrax and a factory:
you can build machine inshop in the high ground.
Barracks can wall your buildabe ramp
(or only dropping a tank and a SCV building a turret/supply depot that inverted ramp)
Blue natural: can't wall the ramp.
---> first of all: i know they are buildable, i tried around if i could install a basilica/bridge ramp but didnt succeed. i agree it sucks. but at what point of the game should this happen? you should/will watch your cliff anyway with ovi/pylon/turret and by the point the terran has tank/siege/starport+addon/ship (drop) you should have something to counter this (esp. a SCV allows only 1 tank). really, your getting ridiculous theorycrafting here. if you use lifting your buildings however, you REALLY should scout this if you're not stupid. and then you can still easily deny this by a blocking pylon/ling/whatever if you see his factory coming, or a single goon in PvT. plus, the opponent having build rax+fax outside will die SO hard to anything you send to his base (which has no wall-in. as much as i like your detailed and precise comments, this one is really too much out of reason imo). so you trade one goon or pylon or ling or turret onto the cliff versus his total defeat if he tries this weird scenario. i doubt any player would risk this. i will try to invent something for unbuildable ramps, though.
6)Red can Wal in (yes, it can)
blue can not
your Luna the final doodad is not in the same position.
--->hm, indeed there is a weird setup that works as wall, even though it looks ridiculous. i will take care of this
7)you can build a phtono cannon behind the red's center expo power generators.
blue is unbuildable.
--->you can actually build 2 behind red's at spots you cant access but only 1 behind blue minerals. -.- will correct this. you just see everything :D
8)Blue minonly have 2x1500 + 3x1000 + 2x500
red minonly have 5x1500 + 2x500
i think that diference will make the red some better because it will have more money in the end.
even if you don't use that expo, in a late game, you go for a minonly to end the game but you get all those fields faster :(
--->argh i didnt equalize reds after having made blues haha. cool thanks, that's a major noob mistake.
9)maybe some decoration?
--->i like the simplicity of it, and there is not much room for more decoration without hurting the map i guess.
thanks a lot for your comment and the work you put into it! even if i dont agree to everything, i REALLY appreciate it. excellent! keep on commenting like this! |
| flothefreak | | |
| update |
| Testbug | | |
hehe :D i was just kidding you
i know who am i talking to ;)
nice work flo |
| RaDiX | | |
| Yeah, flo is teh rox! |
| ptar | | |
| Is the replay 1.14 or 1.15? |
| flothefreak | | |
| 1.15 |
| panschk[FP] | | |
| wow, this looks awesome. |
| maximumdan | | |
| yeah this rules. |
| panschk[FP] | | |
| might be T>P though. P can't pressure early, T can push through the middle. Or maybe I'm wrong, I'm not really a good judge for balancing (anymore) :D |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Not only that, looks like t can hit the nat or troops near the nat without clearing the neutrals =/ |
| Testbug | | |
| that's why protoss must break some spi disruptors early? |
| RaDiX | | |
| testbug got the point! |
| panschk[FP] | | |
| Those psi disruptors can take a lot of hits, though. Maybe one should use weaker buildings? ;) |
| flothefreak | | |
| nah, if i make them too low, it weakens the effect of the concept... |
| Testbug | | |
| even power generators are easy for a couple of zerglings |
| Testbug | | |
flothefreak i love this map you know.
i don't see all my 8 stupid feedback i post being fixed. but now i have test it and found something useul:
red can wall in with only 1 barrax + 1 supply depot. (perfect walled)
blue needs TWO supply+barrax, but probes, zerglings, etc can still get in :(
modified by Testbug |
| flothefreak | | |
your points were corrected and executed actually
i dont know why you seem to not notice that
if i messed up wallin again (although i thought i had made it perfect after your post) i will see to this issue tomorrow. |
| Testbug | | |
oh sorry flo :)
i love you :( |
| flothefreak | | |
| luv you too <3 |
| Testbug | | |
| sound barrier appeared on the newoest updates again but i don't find the wall-in positional imbalance |
| flothefreak | | |
so everything is alright?
update was due to replay |
| Testbug | | |
you know, small units as zergling can use this small corridor between buildings:
but the red player (SE) can make a perfect wall like this:
-------
i had thought on this but looks stupid:
wall in + bunker |
| flothefreak | | |
hm i cannot comment this because i'd either get angry, or despiteful, or mocking :(
like, really - sorry, i tried to answer this seriously and sensible, but it doesnt work. |
| Moebius | | |
Allow me.
Terran:
1. Don't block on the bottom of ramps
2. Don't block vs Zerg
3. Deserve to die (and will) for being so stupid to try to block TvZ...especially at the bottom |
| Testbug | | |
fuck you moebius, Terran will be able to get the marines out of the main vs protoss to defend from dragoons or something.
at south, marines will appear out of the main and won't be able to get in unless you lifftof your barrax.
northwest won't need to liftoff (small units like zergling = small units like marines)
and terran wall in in the bottom on maps like Requiem.
terran can wall it to go fast wraiths, while zerg think they are safe because of the spirte wall,maybe going 3hatch something.
@flo: have to remembet that i don't write shits without having test it, if you don0t believe, ask NastyMarine
sorry |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Yeah flo he's not me who just says everything he possibly can in the world that comes to mind without testing a damn thing. |
| flothefreak | | |
changes:
-cliff is now blocked by 2x350 mins
-center expos removed
-corner expos have only 1gas
-former minonlies near bridges have gas now
-added some power generators to make rushing easier and sooner (power gen near natural allows 1 large unit to pass at a time, so do the outer ones. in the very center, you need to destroy both power gens to allow large units to pass |
| Testbug | | |
maybe you can use the new twilight ramps?
did you fix the wall in positional imbalance?
(what about removin the psi disrupter things and make a funny center like Neo Arkanoid? because the expo layout is ok now, and like arkanoid, there are no expos in the center, what do you think?) |
| flothefreak | | |
nah the concept will stay
wall in is no problem for ages now :o |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Added a quick pvp rep of me and flo. Doesn't show too much since my strat was poorly chosen for the map. Basicly though, you can't 14nexus vs 2gate on this map :) |
| Lancet | | |
| The reps definitely show this is a great strategical map! I was blown away by how things can change so much so fast when you blast the neutrals. I have some concerns regarding muta harrass from that hill behind the nat, but I guess that there are effective ways to deal with that. Also players are going to have to re-engineer how they scout if they don't want to waste their time here. This is a map that you should study for several hours before playing! |
| Testbug | | |
| why not the new inverted ramps? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I still really like this map, and added a game between me and crackling.
The mains are a bit big, but whatever.
One possible problem is in how incredibly easy it is to harass the nat and min only; I can imagine zvp being a pain vs a p doing bisu style play. Eh, in general the expo layout seems pretty p friendly, though it's not BAD by any means, imo.
In general I definitely love the map. |
| MorroW | | |
Blue need 2 supply+rax for a perfect wall
green need supply+rax only
but at the meantime blue can place a bunker behind
while green cant
this wont affect the game so much but :P |
| flothefreak | | |
| you realize this is a wall on lowground? |
| Starparty | | |
| why not wall on high ground instead? |
| Testbug | | |
| Starparty you should download the map and play it |
| MorroW | | |
"why not wall on high ground instead?"
"you realize this is a wall on lowground?"
download the map and have a closer look ppl :P |
| Crackling | | |
lol :x
starparty was ironic... i hope so at least
testbug also was... i REALLY hope he was xD
morrow is just stupid :x |
| starparty | | |
you actually prevented wall-ins with doodads...
heh i missed that. Suddenly I dont think the map was very cool anymore. What happened in SC that made terran so op that they shouldnt get to wall in anymore? |
| Crackling | | |
| 2 gate / 9 pool became very uncommon vs terran and terrans also got much better rine/scv micro |
| flothefreak | | |
| whereas the most striking element here is the simple fact that you already have a wall. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| lol |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Added a brighter picture. |
| NastyMarine | | |
| Joel are you still submiting this map for TSL2? If you are, I think the map should be edited (just the ramps) so that they are all uniform (Blue Storm type ramps). Its more professional imo. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| That's not a bad idea. I won't do it, but anyone else is welcome to fix the ramps. While we're at it, what other changes do you guys think ought to be made for the map? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| But yeah this map is definitely on my mind for TSL2 submitions, it's just awesome strategically, and I'm unaware of any glaring imbalances, theory crafting for such imbalances though would be nice so we can test and address anything like that before coming out and releasing it. The map will be played in my weekly tourney thing without a doubt, starting a week after tomorow. |
| NastyMarine | | |
| i dont think there should be any other changes |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Maybe an invert for red? Maybe make that bridge wider? Maybe add basillica behind the corner gas expos to make them harassble, whereas they're pretty defensible atm? Move lowground gas expo so its geyser isn't in the way of the bridge? 3 and 9 don't look the same, and they should be, so maybe look into that? Decoration could be improved.
That's all I can think of atm. |
| Crackling | | |
| mineral formation were incredibly crappy and main-nat is wayyyyyyyyyy to long |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
main2nat for blue is approximately the same as python -.-
red's is long only because it doesn't have an invert. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Ok, new version made. Name remains the same because if I changed it I'd have to fix all the links on tl which would be mildly annoying. It's technically 2.0.
Map has been pythonized.
Edits:
Fixed mineral formations, modified all but 3/9.
Removed the minerals which blocked the ramps to the cliffs, and opted to simply block them with the formation itself.
Removed potentially detrimentally placed doodads all over the map.
Slightly modified decoration.
Replaced all ramps with ramps from Othello, and gave red an inverted ramp.
Made the plateau at 3 the same size as the plateau at 9.
Added basillica plateaus behind the corner expos, allowing them to be harassed.
Replaced the default sized bridges with double-wide bridges, obtained said bridges from Nasty's (2)CorsairHangar.
Widened the areas between the ramp and bridge at 1 and 7.
Modified map description to include the three mappers involved with the map and added "broodwarmaps.net".
Modified observer triggers.
Other minor edits to facilitate the other modifications, including tile editing and doodad insertion. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Comments/suggestions? |
| anotak | | |
Not sure but it may be too easy for Terran to cliff the natural?
Maybe you should use othello-style cliff instead of the current one |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I dunno. I'm hoping that's a feature that the players will balance out for themselves. I can think of a lot of situations, but I think protoss can immunize themselves from being dropped by either being really aggressive early on, probably with zlots, maybe with a 2gate, or just getting an early robo, which most p do normally now. I spose it comes down to timing.
Nice to see you on bwm :) |
| anotak | | |
| yeah, decided to finally sign up... I may eventually post a map of mine, I just never finish them because I am never happy with my work. |
| RaDiX | | |
If you need help, I can help. My msn aleksi._93@hotmail.com ... Or if you want testgames or anything :).
I like the new features Nightmarjoo. Can any units go to natural cliff?
I'm not sure, but feels like red's passage from natural is tighter than blue's... You should test that. |
| RaDiX | | |
lol why my name is not in the author? -.-
Imo I made this more than marjoo |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Well you actually didn't lay a finger on this map if I understand correctly. But, when I edited the obs version, I added a line saying "concept by radix" anyway.
It was, so I added three circle doodads to blue's to make the choke the same size.
Only units dropped by a dropship or a worker (or anything else you can manage) pushed through the minerals can get to the nat cliff.
I assume then, that tvz and maybe pvz they will push a worker through minerals to make turret/cannon, because there is no room on the lowground for it. There's a doodad at blue, and unbuildable tiles at red preventing it. |
| testbug | | |
as far as i know, RaDiX did nothing here.
plase RaDiX, tell us if we are wrong.
also, flothefreak didn't write anything about RaDiX in the map, AND NIGHTMARJOO DID IT.
this map was modified by nightmarjoo because it need to become "usable" for serious tournaments, so what he has done here is showing his heavy knowledge with his pour mapping habilities, so please RaDiX, i was expecting a "WOW thanks nightmarjooo nice workkk"
even if crackling or p4Ever could do it better. Nightmarjoo has spend his time working very hard allright?
i won't edit RaDiX post, i want him to undeerstand (or make us understand, maybe this was not "pimped" maybe radix worked wit flo) |
| Excalibur | | |
If Radix made the orig map that Flo pimped, and nightmarjoo in turn edited that map, i believe he deserves his credit. And since ive been watching since Radix first made the concept for this, i know thats exactly how it is.
All three of them contributed, all three names should be on it. |
| ptar | | |
"All three of them contributed, all three names should be on it."
#
|
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| When I tried to put "Flothefreak, concept by RaDiX, modified by Nightmarjoo" my name is cut off. Since Radix has done nothing on the map, my name is more important than his, so since I can't fit all three, radix's name will be the one to not appear. His name is already mentioned in the op thread, and his name is mentioned both in the map's description and the observer version's text triggers, as I have stated several times. It's not like he's recieving no credit, but it's quite possible flo could have come up with the concept on his own and made this map without radix's help, so I fail to see how it is critically important for Radix's name to appear in "author". |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Now, any comments or suggestions about the map itself? |
| SiaBBo | | |
| Cannon rush behind natural's cliff. :b |
| RaDiX | | |
| lol how do you pass the barrier? -.- |
| anotak | | |
| You can probably do the push-through trick with another probe or a pylon... SiaBBo has a point, that's pretty bad. |
| SiaBBo | | |
| With pylon? -.- |
| spinesheath | | |
"Flo, NightM, RadX", that's short enough :p
There once was a patch that was supposed to stop pylon jumps. Now I am a zerg player, and I rarely play maps where pylon jumps would be useful, but I hear that they are still possible through minerals? I am pretty sure though that they are impossible through (most) buildings. Can someone tell me based on his own experience?^^
Maybe it works with a cybernetics core, it has a larger collision size :p
You can't push through buildings with 2 probes, that's for sure. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Not a viable strategy vs anyone not mentally retarded, and at that point I don't think the map makes a difference.
Ok, you have two options here guys. Play super aggressively with some sort of rushy kind of strategy to catch an opponent who thinks the wall will give him tons of time to FE really fast off guard, or you can do some variation of FE. If you're fast expoing, and you let your opponent bring 2 workers to push one over the minerals, you're retarded. If you're playing some aggressive build, and your opponent both has the time and money to push a worker over your minerals to cannon you, you're retarded.
PLEASE explain how someone could possibly pull off a cannon rush? To cannon rush, you have to kill a 700 hp neutral, bring 2 workers to your opponent's nat, push one worker over the minerals, and to build a pylon and several cannons. Normally when you cannon rush, you don't have to kill a neutral, you don't have to try and push a worker over a mineral wall, and the only reason it's ever effective is because you either trap your cannons behind the minerals with 2 pylons, or you do it less safely simply out of the building hatch's vision, and even in either of those scenarios, there's still a good chance for it to fail, even if the cannons actually finish warping in. Not to mention, you will have to either make a gateway and a zlot, or place a cannon weird to kill the neutral, wasting even more minerals/time.
The cannon rush only can work vs zerg, but won't because: given 700 hp time extra, zerg will be in a good enough position to prevent you from getting a probe there, or if your probe does get there he can just make a sunk, or more drastically push atleast one drone over to kill the probe before it can make a cannon (while pylon is warping in). There was atleast one other reason why it won't work, but I've forgotten it entirely, not having gone to sleep by 7 am does that to you. Let it suffice that this strategy is impossible to pull off vs a competent player. It's *possible* that later in the game after some sort of 1gate tech build or weird tech advance off of FE with some weird NOT-NORMAL circumstances protoss could DROP a probe there by shuttle and try it, but 1. that's not a rush and 2. it's still HIGHLY improbable, given how much farther advanced zerg will be by that time. I can maybe see this as a finishing blow to a zerg who has basically lost but won't leave, but even a lame losing zerg should be able to block/stop it lol.
Terran has tanks.
If you spend money on a pylon/cannon vs protoss you will get out-macro'd badly. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
You can push through minerals with 2 probes for sure spines. As for buildings, it's possible to use buildings to push you through, but I believe it's impossible on this particular map.
Did Spines' suggestion on author.
modified by Nightmarjoo |
| SiaBBo | | |
Look replay. Two probes go with pylons and then one go trough the minerals. Pylon, cannon.
modified by SiaBBo |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
lol ok, you can hop the neutral buildings using a pylon. Doing this twice wastes atleast 50 minerals but gets 2 probes over, which then can hop the mineral wall to the cliff.
Sunk will probably not reach. This leaves hopping a drone or two and attempting to kill the probe before it can make a cannon.
I think the possibility of this strategy is not detrimental to the map, if you're unable to prevent it, you can still stop it or do something else. Protoss is made vulnerable in doing this, and you can kill a neutral and counter, among other things. Zergs can also just go 9pool and prevent it from happening, or go 9hatch (weird, old build, but it exists and is do-able) and get a sunk down to kill a probe, if the timing works out. |
| SiaBBo | | |
| Ofcourse you can say it wont work if zerg do that and zerg do this. One probe can block drones who will try come to block cannons. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Or you can spawn testbug's mom, she's so big she prevents probes from getting through. |
| SiaBBo | | |
| lol. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| I think I'm going to remove the ramp and just make building room behind the minerals. I don't know why there's a ramp anyway, or why it was blocked off at all. Only thing blocking it does is allow an ovy spot, but that's fixed by removing the ramp altogether. Even if it'll be hard to fight mutas from the lowground when they can't see the mutas, the fact that the main lines are basically impossible to hit should make up for it. What do you guys think? |
| spinesheath | | |
Just for the record: I know that you can squeeze units through minerals.
About the pylon jump, I am fairly sure that it doesn't work on terran wallins anymore (lots of people complaining about it back then).
Anyways, it obviously works with those neutral buildings.
Squeezing 1 drone through the minerals to kill such a can rush should not be enough. The protoss can simply place his probe next to the minerals after putting down a pylon, scoring some free hits while the drone floats over the minerals. The second probe will also be able to help. And if the pylon is placed well, you can run around it long enough for it to finish. A single drone can't harm 2 warping cans at all. Even if you push 2 drones it should not be enough since the pylon probably had a headstart.
Btw if you keep the first pylon you used for jumping instead of canceling it and put down the forge there, you don't waste that much. If you jump close to your nat, that pylon even will be able to power a few cannons for counter defence.
All in all: Either remove that ramp or make it accessible.
Cliffcans are not THAT uncommon, Nightmarjoo. There aren't many recent maps where they are useful, though, so we can rarely see them.
They are even possible in middlegame, especially since most zergs don't have muts in middlegame zvp and don't get drop until their hive tech kicks in.
Cliffcans + HT is pretty tough to break once they are set up. With sairs it also is possible to prevent the zerg from properly scouting such a cliff. |
| RaDiX | | |
nightmarjoo I think you have to ask flo before removing the ramp. But I think it's good idea...
thx for the author change ;)
modified by RaDiX |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| You guys make things so complicated gosh :) |
| Testbug | | |
i don't know why is radix that ungry, he just made this island map map: gulamala and flo made this brand new map.
RaDiX did nothing here, and Nightmarjoo ADDED in the map description credits (what flo didn't do)
you should be thankful dude
modified by testbug |
| RaDiX | | |
hmm the pic in there isn't the original version... this is: http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6169/gulamsn3.jpg
modified by RaDiX |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Map modified again:
Changed the cliff setup for the nat, changed lots of little things all over the map, added a second ovy spot to the cliff itself (covers a completely different area of the nat).
Modified nat formations and positioning.
Modified/moved SE's main ramp back.
Probably other stuff too. |
| RaDiX | | |
| Wow this is the shit.. I love it so much! |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Bumping for my convenience. |
| the dentist | | |
| So do you guys think this map is balanced? Even if ZvP is perfect (no idea), TvP seems like it's going to go weird because both will macro (advantage T) and then T will be able to do an unflankable push right up to the nat. |
| spinesheath | | |
You can't macro up that badly if you opponet chooses to kill some neutral buildings and attack you. Power Gens don't have THAT much HP, and you could even open up some paths way before you are going to attck.
Pushes won't be unflankable if protoss clears part of the wall. Which he obviously should do. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Dentist do you actually play starcraft at all or are you making stuff up and hoping it's right?
"TvP seems like it's going to go weird because both will macro (advantage T)" what the fuck? Both will macro? What, usually only one player macros? What on earth are you talking about, and how could "both players macroing" give terran an advantage? lol. |
| the dentist | | |
| I could say the same to you. Both players free to take expos at an equal rate with no pressure. In TvP that time favors the T. T can defend the wall with tank right from the start just like they can at any other time, and bust through the hole at a small choke point right next to toss's nat. Huge advantage for T. P will not be able to flank a T push and their expanding can be matched by T. Do you even play starcraft at all? By the way if I say this insulting phrase to you will you delete my post even though it's the exact same thing you said to me? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
"with no pressure" only if protoss sits on his ass.
Why do you assume protoss can't apply pressure? Why can terran break down the wall and protoss can't? You do realize protoss can begin killing neutrals with his very first units right? You do realize basically every single expo in the entire map is easily harassable right? And you realize that feature greatly helps protoss, right? And that protoss expos faster than terran with pressure normally? And that the expos being so far from the neutral wall, give protoss tons of time and room to flank any terran push? And that protoss can easily take another route through another neutral hole and flank terran and/or counter one of his expos or go for his main/nat itself with ease? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Oh and, I don't censor insulting comments, I censor insulting comments which either have no relevance to the thread or do not at all add to the thread itself. Oh and, I get to arbitrarily decide what to censor and what not to because I am the admin and you are not. If you don't like it, don't make posts which are nothing but flames. I do try to be fair, but I don't have to be. |
| SiaBBo | | |
| This post is not displayed due to its content |
| spinesheath | | |
Actually, no. Flaming is flaming, and as such is to be censored. BWMN doesn't have any means of punishment for inappropriate behaviour, even though it definately would be appropirate in some cases.
After all, we're actually trying (or are supposed to be) to maintain a nice and friendly atmosphere here... |
| the dentist | | |
| Why cant p pressure? Cos there's a wall with tanks on the other side of it. |
| spinesheath | | |
I'm pretty sure that setting up a wall of about 5-10 tanks is quite counter-productive if you are going to macro like mad.
Protoss will kill of a single PowerGen fairly early, creating only a small entrance so that vults can't sneak in that easily, and then apply pressure. If the terran can deny this wall break, the protoss is doing something wrong. Big time. |
| the dentist | | |
| They don't have to set up a wall of 5-10 tanks they can cover it unsieged. They can repair these buildings also, and replace them with depots. They can push along the wall. It's like a giant free wallin that leads right to the toss's main entrance/nat. I like this map, don't get me wrong. But you can't act like you have no worries about this. It's ridiculous. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| oh please, quit using theory crafting that involves only terran playing, and protoss doing nothing. |
| Testbug | | |
ohhh, maybe terran can build the neutral buildings OR USE THEYR OWN SCV TO BUILD SUPPLY DEPPOTS!! and it will be imba for protoss.
as terran building supply depots at Arkanoid :Oi haven't seen SCVs building supply depots at TIAMAT.
oh! and tanks at 12/6 can siege both nat and bridge gass!! also NE and SW can be tanked.
9/6 can also be tanked but units can use the small ramp.
if you want me to theorycraft some more, just ask. |
| spinesheath | | |
| play some tvp to prove your point, dentist, or otherwise you will have to accept that nobody will share your opinion, simply because it won't work that way. |
| the dentist | | |
| they're depots that are harder to kill. if you can't see that, i don't really care anymore. sure it looks cool but if you ever see good players playing this map it will be pretty obvious. |
| MorroW | | |
i think terran will own any race at this map
i dont think those bridges will ever get used |
| MorroW | | |
ok now i played this map
very fun gj but i think it will need some games to learn gameplay, just like troy :) |
| Testbug | | |
the dentist said:
"they're depots that are harder to kill. if you can't see that, i don't really care anymore. sure it looks cool but if you ever see good players playing this map it will be pretty obvious."
no dude, if you attack move vs opponent's supply deppots, your dragoons will hit the buildings instead of tanks (they'll start shooting e-bays, barrax, supply, etc)
if you attack move vs eutral buildings, nothing happens
|
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Shrunk mains a bit to make Morrow happy, increased the space of the corner expos by filling in an unwalkable isometric square, and created a tight path (only small units can pass through it) in the very center to allow scouting to discourage "cheese", mass proxying, and to make each game less of a rock paper scissors. I finally renamed the map to 1.3. |
| spinesheath | | |
| How about a lurker egg and 2 mineral patches instead of the tight path? That way it only allows early scouting but other units will have to kill some buildings first. |
| MorroW | | |
| great |
| testbug | | |
| what about 4 lurker eggs? |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
I guess I could do that, but I didn't want to completely copy another recent map's feature, whereas the tight path is common now.
It would help keep the concept more, I dunno. |
| MorroW | | |
| it would reduce ammount of strategies possible |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| Edited and copied (2)Plasma's concept on the tight path. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| rofl ok now let's try editing this again, so that the eggs actually FUCKING SHOW UP. |
| MorroW | | |
| gotta love mapmaking :) |
| spinesheath | | |
Place them as unit sprites -> * -> zerg egg/erg lurker egg.
That will make them show up, but they seem to be a little displaced, so I guess you will have to try out where it works. They cannot be placed on the collision area of a building, but will be moved slightly beside it when the game starts. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Yeah I did unit sprites, but they had been player 1, not neutral. And yeah, in game they were pushed, and out of the way. I modified it a bit, and updated this map. They were still pushed, but were pushed in such a way that still prevents units from going through lol, atleast in one game, hopefully they'll be pushed consistently to the same places.
modified by Nightmarjoo |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| lol morrow, patch 1.16? are you sure?^^ |
| MorroW | | |
| maaaybe :D |
| flothefreak | | |
did not see that update. i like it, the corners look better, i never found a pleasing setup for those. and these eggs enable scouting? i like it - provided those eggs are indestructible or take at least as much time to destroy as the buildings!
Although i'd prefer you dont just edit my version but upload your versions standalone so mine are still here.
modified by flothefreak |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
| lol I'd certainly have done that if you had said that literally a year ago when I started working on this. I'll look to see if I still have your version of the map, I believe I do. |
| Nightmarjoo | | |
Extracted the old version from a replay. The melee slot is your version, the obs slot is my version atm. You can edit the pic and obs map if you want.
I'm sorry I never finished working on the map, because it became apparent I would never be able to get the map into anything important. I had concluded it needed remade from scratch however. |
(2)Sound Barrier1.2
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flothefreak vs 
radix(1on1, 1.14)
flothefreak(1on1, 1.15)
Computer(1on1, 1.15)Sound Barrier 1.3.jpg)
